WordPress.org

Making WordPress.org

Opened 2 years ago

Closed 4 months ago

Last modified 4 months ago

#3318 closed enhancement (fixed)

Change two sentences on wordpress.org/

Reported by: IkusiMakusi Owned by: tellyworth
Milestone: Priority: normal
Component: General Keywords: has-patch
Cc:

Description

I propose to change this two sentences in the homepage (https://wordpress.org/):

  • Download & Install WordPress with our famous 5-minute installation. Feel like a rock star.
  • Read the Documentation and become a WordPress expert yourself, impress your friends.

We could just remove the underlined words, or substitute them. For example:

  • Download & Install WordPress with our famous 5-minute installation. It's really easy!
  • Read the Documentation and become a WordPress expert yourself. Feel the power!

I propose this changes because I don't feel comfortable translating the current ones. I'm not the only polyglot feeling this way. In my point of view, those sentences could reflect values I don't share and it seems easy to find alternate expressions suitable for all.

Attachments (4)

3318.diff (1.1 KB) - added by tellyworth 6 months ago.
Patch with suggested translator notes
3318.1.diff (2.9 KB) - added by tellyworth 4 months ago.
New copy as suggested by @yvettesonneveld
Screen Shot 2019-07-24 at 3.33.42 pm.png (91.8 KB) - added by tellyworth 4 months ago.
3318.shorter-third-item.png (13.8 KB) - added by SergeyBiryukov 4 months ago.

Download all attachments as: .zip

Change History (40)

This ticket was mentioned in Slack in #polyglots by txopi. View the logs.


2 years ago

#2 @wolly
2 years ago

  • Component changed from General to International Sites (Rosetta)

#3 follow-up: @obenland
2 years ago

I for one think it's legitimate to adjust translations for cultural differences. We can't expect things that work in the US to also work in other parts of the world. Rather than attempting to come up with a promotional phrase that works in all parts of the world to some degree, I think translators should have the freedom to make changes that work for their cultures, but still honor the intend of the string in question. I'm happy to be corrected on that stance though.

So I'd suggest to translate it in a way that your community sees fit, rather than change the string for everyone.

#4 in reply to: ↑ 3 ; follow-up: @dd32
2 years ago

Replying to obenland:

So I'd suggest to translate it in a way that your community sees fit, rather than change the string for everyone.

I agree with this, however also note that the strings in question don't feel like the professional image which I see WordPress as having. But once again, that may be a locality difference (Australia vs US).

IMHO, translate it so that the original intention of the string is kept, but that the words are comfortable in your locality.

#5 in reply to: ↑ 4 @IkusiMakusi
23 months ago

Replying to dd32:

Replying to obenland:

So I'd suggest to translate it in a way that your community sees fit, rather than change the string for everyone.

I agree with this, however also note that the strings in question don't feel like the professional image which I see WordPress as having. But once again, that may be a locality difference (Australia vs US).

IMHO, translate it so that the original intention of the string is kept, but that the words are comfortable in your locality.

WordPress is a great tool for professionals, and some parts of the site are written keeping that in mind. I think that's something really good if we find the correct tone.
WordPress is also for young people, and I think it's also good to have some parts of the site written keeping them in mind, but I think those test are written in the wrong tone.

This is a free software tool. It gives a lot of freedom when installing, configuring and also when posting. The site could encourage young people to learn how it works, so they can make their blog fit to their needs, to make their our blog and help their friends to create blogs too, etc. The site of this free software could say many things keeping young people in mind. But the text in the homepage encourages young people to be selfish and use WordPress just to be better than their friends, to show off. Is this the free software spirit? Is this how we want young people to be? The attitude we want from the new blood of the project?

I think the text is giving a wrong message. Or perhaps it is the right message but in a wrong tone. Anyway, I think it is really easy to fix it: just replacing two problematic sentences with other two that feel as exciting for young people but are more aligned with the free software's way.

#6 follow-up: @obenland
23 months ago

  • Keywords 2nd-opinion removed
  • Resolution set to worksforme
  • Status changed from new to closed

I'm not sure I understand how you come to the conclusion that it encourages young people to be selfish or be better than their friends, but I think the gist of this ticket has been addressed. Thanks for bringing it up

#7 in reply to: ↑ 6 @IkusiMakusi
23 months ago

@obenland You have closed this ticket without trying to understand the reasons of the petition. It was really easy to satisfy this little petition but you decided to ignore the Global Translation Editors behind this suggestion. WordPress is a weaker community now.

This ticket was mentioned in Slack in #polyglots by txopi. View the logs.


23 months ago

#9 @Presskopp
22 months ago

  • Resolution worksforme deleted
  • Status changed from closed to reopened

I was following this ticket, but didn't know what to say, so I just said thank you to IkusiMakusi on slack for raising this ticket. I understand 'both sides'. When I use WordPress I personally don't want to feel like a rock star or impress my friends. Also I don't like to be a 'WP rock star' on the about page (id="wp-people-group-recent-rockstars")
I think it's absolutely appropriate to ask if this kind of language reflects the WP 'style' - a marketing question, I can't tell.

This away, I see that anybody in their language can and always will change strings to be more fitting in their all day language or cultural surroundings or whatever.

But I don't like this ticket to be buried and forgotten, so that's my 2c today.

#10 @wolly
22 months ago

I don't have a strong opinion about this ticket.

I know, as long time GTE, that, sometime, I have big difficulty to understand and translate some dev choices.

I agree to keep this ticket open, to allow a discussion.

#11 @obenland
22 months ago

Could you please help me understand how the resolution to this ticket was unsatisfactory?

The ticket description says:

I propose this changes because I don't feel comfortable translating the current ones.

So it seems to me that the actual problem are not the strings in question but rather the reporters discomfort with the literal translations of these strings. I was under the impression @dd32 and I addressed that issue, encouraging translators to "translate it so that the original intention of the string is kept, but that the words are comfortable in {their} locality".

If there have been previous discussions and there is more context around this, please add links to those in this ticket so I (and everyone else) have a chance to read up on them.

Last edited 22 months ago by obenland (previous) (diff)

#12 @ocean90
22 months ago

  • Component changed from International Sites (Rosetta) to General

This ticket was mentioned in Slack in #meta by obenland. View the logs.


15 months ago

#14 @tellyworth
15 months ago

If the core issue is that translators are uncertain about how to translate those strings, let's address that by adding translator descriptions.

#15 @Presskopp
15 months ago

Descriptions would be for sure helpful here, st. like:

"pick something catchy in your language"

But still, do you feel like a rockstar and go around impress your friends with your WP admin role?

I hope not, as this would reflect a arrogant and childish attitude, if you ask me.

#16 @grafruessel
15 months ago

So it's about a tone and a way of communication with customers. Is'nt this something for the marketing team?

@tellyworth
6 months ago

Patch with suggested translator notes

#17 @tellyworth
6 months ago

Would attachment:3318.diff remove the confusion and clarify for translators?

#18 @tellyworth
6 months ago

  • Keywords has-patch reporter-feedback added

#19 @IkusiMakusi
5 months ago

@tellyworth I'm sorry, but there isn't any confusion to be clarified. I explained which English text to change and why. I also proposed and alternative text (in English, of course).

  1. Why the actual text shouldn't be changed at all?
  2. What's wrong with the alternative text?

From my point of view, the actual text can be enhanced because enacts values not shared by all of us. I think the text I proposed it does and it looks good! Adding a note for translators doesn't fix this issue, because my petition is about the original English text.

Someone could try to justify why saying "Feel like a rock star" is better than saying "It's really easy!" and why saying "impress your friends" is better than saying "It's really easy!". Nobody did, so I think we should make the little change I proposed and close this issue. I know my petition is not usual, but I see it as just an enhancement.

#20 @tellyworth
5 months ago

  • Resolution set to reported-upstream
  • Status changed from reopened to closed

I'm referring this to the marketing team, since decisions about this kind of English copy is in their purview and not in ours.

#21 @yvettesonneveld
5 months ago

Thank you for reaching out, @tellyworth! From a marketing perspective, it's a bit of a tricky one. It's about showing some personality, while not offending or excluding anyone at the same time. Since we're such a diverse community, I'd recommend to err on the safe side.

I have some thoughts on the copy but will run them by my co-teamreps first. That will help me make sure I'm not overlooking any known sensitivities. Will get back to you all soon.

#22 @yvettesonneveld
4 months ago

  • Resolution reported-upstream deleted
  • Status changed from closed to reopened

Sorry, it took me a little longer than I thought to get back to you. Here's our suggested alternative.

  1. Find a trusted web host and maybe support WordPress at the same time.
  2. Download & install WordPress with our famous 5-minute installation. Publishing has never been easier.
  3. Spend some time reading our documentation, get to know WordPress better every day and start helping others, too.

@tellyworth
4 months ago

New copy as suggested by @yvettesonneveld

#23 follow-up: @tellyworth
4 months ago

  • Owner set to tellyworth
  • Status changed from reopened to accepted

I've attached a screenshot of the changes from #comment:22. If that looks ok I'll go ahead and deploy the patch attachment:3318.1.diff.

#24 in reply to: ↑ 23 @yvettesonneveld
4 months ago

Looks good to me.
Thanks, @tellyworth and everyone involved. Hope you all consider it an improvement.

Warmly, Yvette

Replying to tellyworth:

I've attached a screenshot of the changes from #comment:22. If that looks ok I'll go ahead and deploy the patch attachment:3318.1.diff.

#25 @IkusiMakusi
4 months ago

  • Keywords reporter-feedback removed

Good improvement, thank you.

#26 @SergeyBiryukov
4 months ago

  • Resolution set to fixed
  • Status changed from accepted to closed

In 9079:

WordPress.org Main Theme: Update "It’s Easy As…" block in the home page footer to use a more appropriate tone.

Props yvettesonneveld, IkusiMakusi, tellyworth.
Fixes #3318.

#27 follow-up: @Otto42
4 months ago

Watered down garbage. WordPress is worse for this change.

#28 @obenland
4 months ago

While I wouldn't use the same words, I do agree with @Otto42. It's disappointing to lose that bit of personality.

I also find it questionable to suggest that web hosts that are not part of /hosting are not trustworthy.

#29 @Presskopp
4 months ago

Hmm. From a translator's perspective:

I don't really get the point of (1) now ("maybe support..")

(2) is ok for me

In (3) I wouldn't use "start helping" but st. like "if you want, start helping.."

#30 in reply to: ↑ 27 ; follow-up: @SergeyBiryukov
4 months ago

Replying to Otto42:

Watered down garbage. WordPress is worse for this change.

I do appreciate personal opinions, however tone like this doesn't seem appropriate for a project aiming to be welcoming and inclusive, per "Our Mission" on https://wordpress.org/about/.

While we don't have a published community code of conduct yet (#957 is still in progress), I think at least these items from the WordCamp code of conduct apply to our public bug trackers:

  • Be considerate, respectful, and collaborative.
  • Refrain from demeaning, discriminatory or harassing behavior and speech.

Replying to obenland:

I also find it questionable to suggest that web hosts that are not part of /hosting are not trustworthy.

Replying to Presskopp:

Hmm. From a translator's perspective:
I don't really get the point of (1) now ("maybe support..")

We could always do another iteration, feel free to reopen with specific suggestions.

Personally, I'd like to make the third item a bit shorter, to keep the link on one line and fit the whole text to three lines overall, to align better with the other two items. Something like this:

Read our documentation, get to know WordPress better every day and start helping others, too.

#31 @yvettesonneveld
4 months ago

I wish we could make everyone entirely happy... Unfortunately, a bit more of a careful tone of voice may be the price we pay for powering a third pf thr web.

The wonderful thing about online media is that we can keep tweaking. We’ll brainstorm some more and we’ll try to come up with something with a bit more personality, and please do suggest ideas. We’re all in this together, ok?

#32 @yvettesonneveld
4 months ago

@obenland I may need you to help me out here... The page where “Find a trusted host” links to clearly states that there are many hosting companies that can be trusted and invites hosting companies to get in touch. Am I overlooking something that might imply that other hosting companies could not be trusted?

#33 in reply to: ↑ 30 @Otto42
4 months ago

Replying to SergeyBiryukov:

I do appreciate personal opinions, however tone like this doesn't seem appropriate for a project aiming to be welcoming and inclusive, per "Our Mission"

This is what you're going to object to? Really? I intentionally watered down my statement on this, because my true opinion would literally set your ears on fire, but this is just too far? Amazing.

Unfortunately, a bit more of a careful tone of voice may be the price we pay for powering a third pf thr web.

If this is truly the case, then I say that the price is too high.

I cannot make any more statements on this topic without violating some set of "guidelines" apparently, so I will stop now. To be clear, I disagree with the basic underlying arguments being made, and will not support them in any form. This is the end of my involvement in this matter.

#35 in reply to: ↑ 34 ; follow-up: @SergeyBiryukov
4 months ago

Replying to garrett-eclipse:

While translating these new strings I found the   before the last word for the three new strings, was that intended? And should it be preserved in the translation as most languages will be different lengths.

The   is there to prevent orphaned words (in this case time, easier, too) from wrapping to a new line.

They don't need to be preserved as is, but rather adjusted to avoid the same issue in translations. Perhaps that should be clarified in a translator comment.

#36 in reply to: ↑ 35 @garrett-eclipse
4 months ago

Replying to SergeyBiryukov:

The   is there to prevent orphaned words (in this case time, easier, too) from wrapping to a new line.

They don't need to be preserved as is, but rather adjusted to avoid the same issue in translations. Perhaps that should be clarified in a translator comment.

Thanks @SergeyBiryukov I appreciate the context that makes sense. I'll leave it to you to decide it the translator comment is needed there. All the best

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